Which Country Banned Furries? Clarifying Misconceptions and Exploring Global Fandom Regulations
It’s a question that pops up with a surprising amount of frequency, often fueled by sensationalized headlines or a misunderstanding of local ordinances: "Which country banned furries?" The immediate, concise answer is that no single country has outright banned "furries" as a group or a fandom. This notion is largely a misconception, a simplification of much more nuanced situations and localized regulations that might affect specific activities or gatherings associated with the furry community.
To truly understand this, let's first consider what it means to be a "furry." At its core, the furry fandom is a subculture interested in anthropomorphic animal characters with human personalities and characteristics. This interest can manifest in various ways: appreciating art, writing stories, creating costumes (fursuits), attending conventions, or simply engaging in online communities. It’s a diverse and passionate group, and like any large community, its activities can intersect with various legal and social frameworks in different parts of the world.
My own initial encounters with this question were similarly confused. I remember stumbling upon an online forum where someone was vehemently asserting that a specific nation had outlawed furries entirely. The details were vague, and the source seemed questionable. It prompted me to dig deeper, to move beyond the sensationalism and understand the actual legal landscape. What I found was a tapestry of regulations, not a blanket ban. It's crucial to differentiate between a ban on a cultural identity and regulations concerning public assembly, specific types of performances, or the use of certain public spaces. These are vastly different concepts, and conflating them can lead to significant misunderstandings.
When people ask "Which country banned furries?", they are often looking for a definitive answer, a clear-cut case of a government saying "no more furries." However, the reality is far more intricate. Bans, where they occur, are typically not on the identity itself, but on the *actions* or *gatherings* that are perceived as problematic by local authorities or cultural norms. This might involve restrictions on public gatherings for safety reasons, ordinances against certain types of performances deemed inappropriate, or even concerns related to zoning laws for event venues. It's a critical distinction that gets lost in broad-stroke pronouncements.
Deconstructing the "Ban": What Might Be Misinterpreted?
The idea of a country banning furries often stems from misunderstandings surrounding specific events or localized crackdowns. Let's break down some common scenarios that might lead to this perception:
Convention Restrictions: Sometimes, furry conventions – large gatherings where fans meet, share art, and often showcase their fursuits – might face hurdles. This isn't a ban on furries, but rather on the *specific convention*. Reasons can range from permit issues, local noise complaints, or concerns about the size of the gathering. Public Performance Regulations: In some areas, wearing a fursuit in public might fall under regulations for street performers, costume laws, or even public decency ordinances, especially if the performance is perceived as disruptive or offensive. This is a regulation on the *act of performing in costume publicly*, not on being a furry. Social and Cultural Opposition: While not a legal ban, strong social or cultural opposition in a particular country could lead to individuals or groups facing harassment or feeling unwelcome. This might create an *environment* where furry activities are difficult to pursue, leading to a perception of a ban. Misinterpretation of Laws: Broad laws concerning public order, indecent exposure, or organized gatherings could be misapplied or misinterpreted by individuals reporting on events, leading to the erroneous conclusion that furries themselves are banned.It's easy to see how these situations, when reported without proper context, could snowball into the idea that an entire country has outlawed the furry fandom. The nuances are often lost in the translation.
Analyzing Specific Regions: Where Misconceptions Might AriseWhile there’s no global decree, let's examine specific regions where discussions around regulations affecting the furry fandom have been more prominent, and clarify what’s truly happening.
China and the "Furry Ban" NarrativeOne of the most frequently cited examples when the question "Which country banned furries?" arises is China. However, this is a prime example of a misunderstanding rooted in a complex regulatory environment. What actually happened in China wasn't a ban on the furry fandom itself, but rather a crackdown on certain online content and specific social media platforms. Several years ago, the Chinese government intensified its internet censorship efforts. This included tightening regulations on user-generated content, particularly on platforms like Weibo, a popular microblogging site. During this period, some furry-related content, especially that which was deemed sexually explicit or potentially subversive by the authorities, was removed, and some accounts were suspended.
My take on this: It's crucial to understand that China's internet regulations are very broad and can affect a wide array of content, not just niche communities like the furry fandom. The government aims to control the flow of information and maintain social stability as they define it. Therefore, while furry content was impacted, it was part of a much larger, ongoing censorship campaign targeting various forms of online expression. The narrative that China "banned furries" is an oversimplification that ignores the broader context of internet governance in the country. It’s more accurate to say that certain *types of content* that were popular within parts of the furry fandom faced stricter scrutiny and removal on Chinese platforms.
The impact wasn't a dissolution of the fandom within China; rather, it pushed many furry enthusiasts towards more private or alternative online spaces, or necessitated a careful self-censorship to avoid falling afoul of the authorities. For those who create art or engage in discussions, navigating these restrictions requires a keen awareness of what is permissible and what could lead to disciplinary action. This is a constant challenge for many online communities operating within heavily regulated digital spaces.
Russia and Public GatheringsAnother region sometimes mentioned in discussions about furries facing restrictions is Russia. Here, the situation often revolves around regulations concerning public gatherings and so-called "gay propaganda." While the furry fandom is not inherently sexual, some public appearances or events, particularly those involving fursuits, have been caught in the crossfire of broader social and legal crackdowns. In some instances, authorities have dispersed gatherings of furries, citing concerns about public order or linking them, often unfairly and inaccurately, to prohibited forms of public assembly or expression.
Specifically, laws against "non-traditional sexual relations propaganda" have sometimes been broadly interpreted or misapplied to groups whose activities might be perceived as deviating from perceived social norms, even if there's no direct connection. The intent behind these laws was primarily to target LGBTQ+ visibility, but their vague wording has allowed for their application to other subcultures. It's important to stress that these actions are not directed at the furry identity itself but rather at the *nature of public assembly* and the perceived message conveyed by certain public displays. Wearing elaborate costumes in public, in certain contexts, might be viewed with suspicion or as a cause for concern regarding potential public disturbance.
From my perspective, this is a disturbing trend where vague legislation can have a chilling effect on diverse forms of self-expression. The lack of clear definitions allows for subjective enforcement, and groups like the furry fandom, which are often already on the fringes of mainstream society, become easy targets. It highlights the importance of precise legal language and the dangers of broad, sweeping regulations that can be weaponized against minority or unconventional groups.
The Role of Conventions and Public EventsFurry conventions are often central hubs for the fandom. They are where members can freely express themselves, share their creations, and connect with like-minded individuals. When discussions about bans arise, it’s often in the context of these events facing challenges. This is where we can see specific examples of how regulations, rather than outright bans, play out.
Consider a situation where a convention is planned in a city. Organizers must navigate a complex web of requirements:
Permits and Licenses: Securing the necessary permits from local authorities is paramount. This can involve health and safety checks, crowd management plans, and ensuring compliance with zoning laws. Venue Contracts: Agreements with convention centers or hotels often have clauses regarding the type of events hosted, acceptable behavior, and insurance requirements. Local Ordinances: Cities have various ordinances concerning noise levels, public assembly, and the use of public spaces. A large gathering of people in costumes, for instance, might trigger specific rules about sound amplification or pedestrian traffic. Security and Public Safety: Authorities may have concerns about potential overcrowding, the need for adequate security personnel, and emergency preparedness.I've seen firsthand how organizers of various fan conventions, including furry ones, must meticulously plan and often negotiate with authorities to ensure their events can proceed smoothly. It’s a testament to the dedication of the fandom that they invest so much effort into creating these safe spaces for expression. When a convention faces difficulties, it's rarely because the attendees are "furries," but because the event management might have overlooked a crucial permit, or because of a local community's unfamiliarity or discomfort with large, themed gatherings.
There have been instances where conventions have been relocated or canceled due to issues with venue contracts or local opposition. This is not a ban on furries, but a logistical or social hurdle for a specific event. The key takeaway is that the furry fandom, like any large and diverse group, must operate within the existing legal and social frameworks of the places they gather. This can sometimes lead to friction, but it doesn't equate to a country-wide prohibition on their existence.
Understanding Fursuits and Public PerceptionFursuits, the elaborate costumes that are a hallmark of the furry fandom for many, often play a role in the perceptions that lead to discussions about bans. When someone wearing a full fursuit appears in public, it can be a striking visual. This visibility, while a form of self-expression for the wearer, can sometimes lead to misunderstandings or apprehension from those unfamiliar with the fandom.
Here’s how fursuits can intersect with regulations:
Costume Ordinances: Some cities have ordinances that regulate the wearing of masks or costumes in public, especially during non-festive times, often for security reasons. A fursuit, with its full head covering, might fall under such regulations. Street Performing Laws: If someone wears a fursuit and performs in public for donations, they might need to comply with street performing licenses or permits. Public Decency and Behavior: While most fursuiters are respectful, any behavior deemed disruptive or inappropriate while in costume can lead to interactions with law enforcement, irrespective of their furry affiliation. Perception vs. Reality: The sheer novelty of a fursuit can lead some to jump to conclusions about the wearer's intentions or identity. This is where media portrayals and public education are so vital.From my experience, the vast majority of fursuiters are incredibly aware of their surroundings and strive to be positive ambassadors for the fandom. They often engage with the public in friendly ways, posing for photos and interacting with children. However, the actions of a few, or simply the unfamiliarity of the general public, can sometimes lead to negative interactions or the imposition of rules that feel disproportionate to the fandom itself.
When authorities intervene regarding fursuiters, it's usually based on specific circumstances – a concern about obscuring identity, a complaint about blocking traffic, or an issue related to a permit. These are reactive measures to specific situations, not proactive measures to eradicate the existence of people who enjoy wearing fursuits. The lack of context in rapid news reports can easily skew public perception.
The Internet as a Global Connector (and Misinformation Source)The internet has played a massive role in both connecting the furry fandom globally and, unfortunately, in spreading misinformation about it. Online forums, social media platforms, and dedicated websites allow furries from all corners of the world to interact, share their creations, and organize events. This global reach means that news, or even rumors, about restrictions in one country can quickly spread and be amplified.
This is precisely how the "Which country banned furries?" question gains traction. A single, possibly misreported, incident in one nation can be generalized to mean a worldwide phenomenon, or at least a widespread pattern. Online discussions often lack the nuance of legal distinctions and cultural contexts, leading to a simplified and often inaccurate narrative.
I’ve observed that when a story about a crackdown on furry activities in a specific country emerges online, it’s often picked up by various aggregators and social media channels without thorough fact-checking. The headline itself becomes the story, and the details get lost. This is a common challenge for many niche communities online; their experiences can be easily distorted when filtered through the fast-paced, often sensationalized world of online news and social media discourse.
It's therefore imperative for anyone seeking accurate information to look beyond sensational headlines and delve into the specific circumstances of any reported incident. Understanding the local laws, the context of the event, and the official statements (if available) is crucial to distinguishing between a genuine ban on an identity and a regulation affecting a specific activity or gathering.
Legal and Social Landscapes: A Global Overview
To provide a more comprehensive understanding, let's consider how different countries approach regulations that *could* affect the furry fandom, even without a direct ban. This isn't an exhaustive legal analysis, but rather an exploration of common themes.
North America (USA & Canada)In the United States and Canada, the furry fandom is generally free to exist and express itself without fear of country-wide bans. Freedom of speech and assembly are protected rights. However, like anywhere, individual activities can be subject to local laws:
Public Indecency Laws: These exist in most jurisdictions and prohibit nudity or sexually explicit acts in public. This would apply to anyone, including furries, if they were to engage in such behavior. Ordinances on Public Gatherings: Large events, including furry conventions, need to comply with local permitting processes, zoning laws, and public safety regulations. Mask Ordinances: Some localities have specific laws prohibiting masks in public spaces for security reasons, though these are often contested and may not apply to costumes worn at permitted events.Furry conventions in North America are commonplace and generally well-attended. The largest, such as Anthrocon in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, attract thousands of participants and operate openly, contributing significantly to the local economy. While minor incidents or misunderstandings can occur, there’s no overarching legal framework targeting the fandom.
EuropeEuropean countries present a diverse legal landscape. Generally, Western and Northern European nations tend to have strong protections for freedom of expression.
United Kingdom: The UK has a vibrant furry scene with conventions like Eurofurence and Anthrocon UK. There are no specific laws targeting furries. Regulations would primarily concern public order and specific event permits. Germany: Germany has robust freedom of speech laws. Furry conventions are common. Regulations would typically focus on permits for events and general public order. France: Similar to other Western European nations, France upholds freedom of expression. Public gatherings are regulated by permits, and specific laws against public indecency or nuisance would apply to individuals regardless of their fandom affiliation.However, some Eastern European countries have faced scrutiny for legislation that could be interpreted to suppress certain forms of expression or assembly. As mentioned with Russia, vaguely worded laws on public order or morality can be problematic. It’s vital to distinguish these instances from a direct ban on the furry identity itself.
Australia and New ZealandBoth Australia and New Zealand are generally tolerant of diverse subcultures. The furry fandom thrives in these countries with conventions and online communities. Regulations would align with those found in North America and Western Europe, focusing on public assembly, permits for events, and general laws concerning public behavior.
South AmericaWhile less prominent in global discussions, the furry fandom exists in South America, with notable communities in countries like Brazil and Argentina. Legal frameworks generally protect freedom of expression. Convention organizers, as elsewhere, would need to adhere to local laws regarding event management and public safety.
Frequently Asked Questions About Furry Fandom Bans
Why do people think a country banned furries?The perception that a country has banned furries often stems from a combination of factors, primarily driven by sensationalized media reports and a misunderstanding of localized regulations. When governments or authorities in any nation take action against specific activities or events that involve individuals identifying as furries, these actions can be misinterpreted as a blanket ban on the entire fandom. For instance, if a furry convention is denied a permit due to logistical issues, or if individuals wearing fursuits are cited for violating a local ordinance on public assembly, these isolated incidents can be amplified online and inaccurately portrayed as a nationwide prohibition.
Furthermore, the inherent visibility and unique nature of the furry fandom, particularly the use of elaborate fursuits, can sometimes lead to apprehension or misunderstanding from the general public and, consequently, from authorities. This unfamiliarity can result in disproportionate reactions to certain gatherings or behaviors. The internet, while a powerful tool for community building, can also be a conduit for misinformation, where nuanced situations are simplified into catchy, albeit false, headlines. Without proper context or a deep dive into the specific legal and social circumstances, it's easy for the rumor of a "furry ban" to gain traction and spread widely.
Are there countries where furries face significant legal challenges?While no country has enacted a law explicitly banning "furries" as an identity, there are indeed countries where individuals within the furry fandom might face significant legal and social challenges. These challenges are rarely about the identity itself, but rather about the *activities* associated with the fandom and the broader regulatory or social environment.
As discussed, countries with strict internet censorship, such as China, have imposed broad regulations that affect online content, including that popular within the furry fandom. This doesn't mean furries are illegal, but the expression and dissemination of certain furry-related art, discussions, or media can be suppressed or removed from public view on popular platforms. This creates a challenging environment for online interaction and content sharing.
Similarly, in countries like Russia, laws that are ostensibly aimed at regulating public gatherings or prohibiting certain forms of expression (like the "gay propaganda" laws) can be broadly interpreted or misapplied. While not targeting furries directly, these laws can lead to authorities dispersing public meetups or penalizing individuals for activities that are perceived as deviating from social norms or disrupting public order. The vague wording of such legislation allows for subjective enforcement, making it risky for any subculture that might draw attention.
Beyond these specific examples, the broader issue of religious or cultural conservatism in certain nations can also create an environment where unconventional subcultures like the furry fandom might be viewed with suspicion or outright disapproval. This can lead to social ostracism, harassment, or pressure from authorities, even in the absence of explicit legal bans. In such regions, the focus for furries might shift from open participation to more discreet online engagement or private gatherings to avoid negative repercussions.
It is crucial to reiterate that these challenges are not universal across all nations, nor are they typically directed at the fundamental identity of being a furry. Instead, they are often byproducts of broader governmental policies on internet control, public assembly, or social morality, which can incidentally impact how the furry fandom operates within those specific national contexts.
How do furry conventions operate in countries with strict regulations?Operating furry conventions in countries with strict regulations, or even in regions within more liberal countries that have complex permitting processes, requires meticulous planning, a deep understanding of local laws, and often a degree of careful negotiation with authorities. The key is to frame the event in a way that complies with existing legal frameworks and minimizes potential points of friction.
1. Thorough Legal Research and Compliance: The first and most critical step is to conduct extensive research into the specific laws and regulations that govern public gatherings, events, and venues in the target country or city. This includes understanding:
Permitting Requirements: What types of permits are needed for a convention of a certain size? This can range from general event permits to specific licenses for sound, food service, or even costume displays. Public Assembly Laws: Are there restrictions on the size or nature of public gatherings? What are the rules regarding protests or demonstrations, as these might be mistakenly applied? Zoning Laws: Ensuring the chosen venue is appropriately zoned for large public events. Health and Safety Standards: Compliance with fire codes, sanitation, and emergency preparedness plans is usually non-negotiable. Content Regulations: In countries with strict content controls, organizers must be aware of what types of art, performances, or discussions are permissible. This might require pre-screening of vendors or performers.2. Venue Selection and Negotiation: Choosing the right venue is paramount. Organizers will look for venues that:
Have experience hosting large events and understand the logistical requirements. Are willing to work closely with the organizers to ensure all legal requirements are met. Can provide a safe and controlled environment.Negotiations with the venue often involve clarifying the nature of the event, the expected attendance, and any specific needs. In some cases, organizers might opt for private spaces rather than publicly accessible areas to avoid some of the more stringent public assembly regulations.
3. Communication and Transparency with Authorities: Instead of trying to operate under the radar, successful convention organizers often engage proactively with local authorities. This involves:
Clearly Defining the Event: Presenting the convention as a cultural or community gathering focused on art, creativity, and social interaction, rather than anything potentially controversial. Demonstrating Responsibility: Showing that organizers have a robust plan for security, crowd management, and emergency response. Building Relationships: Establishing a point of contact within local law enforcement or city government can be invaluable for addressing issues proactively and fostering mutual understanding.4. Adapting Fandom Activities: In environments with stricter rules, some typical furry activities might need adaptation:
Fursuiting: While fursuiting is a core part of the fandom, wearing costumes in public spaces outside the venue might be discouraged or prohibited. Convention organizers will often define clear boundaries for where fursuiting is acceptable. Performances and Panels: Content for panels and performances will need to be carefully vetted to ensure it does not violate any local obscenity or indecency laws. Merchandise and Art Sales: Vendors will need to be aware of any restrictions on the types of art or merchandise they can sell.5. Focusing on Internal Community Standards: While external regulations are critical, internal community standards also play a role. Organizers will establish and enforce codes of conduct that emphasize respect, safety, and responsible behavior within the convention space. This helps to preemptively address potential issues that might draw negative attention from authorities or the wider public.
Ultimately, operating a furry convention in a challenging regulatory environment is about demonstrating responsibility, adhering strictly to the law, and fostering positive relationships with the host community and authorities. It's about proving that the fandom can be a positive and well-managed force, capable of contributing to the local economy and cultural landscape, rather than being a source of disruption.
What is the difference between a ban on an identity and a ban on specific activities?This distinction is perhaps the most crucial one when discussing the furry fandom and any potential "bans." Understanding this difference is key to dispelling misinformation and accurately assessing the legal status of the fandom in any given region.
A Ban on an Identity: This would mean a government enacting laws or policies that specifically prohibit individuals from identifying as members of a particular group or subculture. For example, if a country were to outlaw being a "goth," "punk," or indeed a "furry," it would be a direct attack on personal identity and self-expression. Such a ban would be exceptionally broad, difficult to enforce, and would likely violate fundamental human rights related to association and expression. It would imply that simply *being* a furry, regardless of actions, is illegal.
A Ban on Specific Activities: This pertains to governmental regulations or laws that restrict certain actions, behaviors, or types of gatherings. These laws are typically applied universally, meaning they affect everyone, not just a specific subculture, although they might disproportionately impact certain groups depending on their practices. Examples include:
Public Indecency Laws: Prohibiting public nudity or sexually explicit conduct. This applies to everyone, regardless of whether they are a furry, a tourist, or a local resident. Laws Against Disturbing the Peace: Prohibiting excessive noise or disruptive behavior in public spaces. Ordinances on Public Assembly and Permits: Requiring permits for large gatherings, protests, or organized events to ensure public safety and order. Regulations on Street Performing: Mandating licenses for individuals performing in public spaces for money. Laws Against Specific Types of Performances: For example, prohibiting certain types of shows deemed obscene or harmful. Internet Content Regulations: Restricting the types of images, videos, or text that can be shared online.Why the Distinction Matters for the Furry Fandom: When we hear reports of "furries being banned" in a country, it is almost always a misinterpretation of the latter: a ban or restriction on *specific activities* that some furries might engage in. For instance, if authorities in a particular city shut down a meetup of furries because they didn't have a permit for a public gathering, the news might be reported as "furries banned from meeting up." However, the reality is that the *gathering itself* was not permitted, irrespective of whether the participants were furries, hobbyists, or any other group. The same applies to concerns about costumes or performances. These are regulated actions, not inherent identities.
Therefore, when investigating the question "Which country banned furries?", it's vital to look for legislation that directly targets the identity of being a furry. Such legislation is virtually nonexistent globally. What does exist are regulations on public conduct, event management, and online content that can affect how and where the furry fandom expresses itself. The furry fandom, like any other subculture or community, must navigate these existing legal structures.
The Fandom's Response and Adaptation
The furry fandom is not a monolithic entity that passively accepts restrictions. Throughout its history, the community has shown remarkable resilience and adaptability in the face of challenges.
Community Self-Governance and Codes of ConductMany furry conventions and online communities have developed robust codes of conduct. These are internal rules designed to ensure a safe, respectful, and positive environment for all members. These codes often cover:
Respectful Interaction: Emphasizing consent and respectful communication between members. Behavioral Standards: Outlining acceptable behavior within convention spaces or online forums, addressing issues like harassment and inappropriate conduct. Fursuit Etiquette: Guidelines for wearing fursuits, such as being mindful of personal space and not obstructing pathways. Content Guidelines: Rules for sharing art and other content, particularly concerning adult themes, to ensure they are appropriate for the platform or event.I’ve seen firsthand how effective these internal governance mechanisms can be. They allow the fandom to self-regulate, addressing potential problems before they escalate or draw unwanted attention from external authorities. This proactive approach is a testament to the community's commitment to maintaining its spaces as safe havens for expression.
Advocacy and Public EducationWhen faced with misconceptions or unfair regulations, the furry community often engages in advocacy and public education. This can take several forms:
Direct Communication: Engaging with local authorities, venue managers, and the public to explain the nature of the fandom and its activities. Information Campaigns: Creating resources, articles, and social media content to educate the public about what it means to be a furry, countering stereotypes and misinformation. Legal Support: In cases where individuals or events face legal challenges, the community may rally to offer support, whether through crowdfunding for legal fees or providing access to legal expertise.The goal is to foster understanding and acceptance, making it clear that the furry fandom is a diverse community of artists, writers, performers, and enthusiasts, much like any other fandom, and not a monolithic group with malicious intent. This educational effort is crucial in preventing misinterpretations that could lead to restrictive measures.
Technological Adaptation and Secure Online SpacesGiven the increased scrutiny of online content in some countries, furries have become adept at utilizing technology to maintain their communities:
Encrypted Communication: Using secure messaging apps and platforms for private discussions. Decentralized Platforms: Exploring alternative social media or content-sharing platforms that offer more user control and less centralized censorship. Artistic Adaptation: Developing creative ways to express anthropomorphic themes that navigate potential content filters or restrictions.This technological adaptability ensures that the core of the fandom—its creativity, community spirit, and shared passion—can persist even in challenging digital environments. It reflects a broader trend among many online communities to seek out spaces where they can freely express themselves without fear of unwarranted censorship.
Conclusion: The Nuance of "Bans" and the Future of Fandoms
To circle back to the initial question, "Which country banned furries?", the definitive answer remains: no country has banned furries. The narrative of a ban is almost always a simplification or misinterpretation of local regulations concerning specific activities, public gatherings, or online content. These regulations, while sometimes creating challenges for the furry fandom, are generally not aimed at eradicating the identity itself but at managing public order, safety, or information flow as defined by the respective governments.
From my perspective, this exploration highlights a critical point: the importance of nuanced understanding in an era of rapid information dissemination. Sensational headlines can obscure the complex realities of legal frameworks, cultural contexts, and the diverse nature of subcultures. The furry fandom, with its unique forms of expression, often finds itself at the intersection of these complexities. Its continued existence and growth, even in the face of occasional hurdles, is a testament to the resilience, creativity, and strong sense of community among its members.
Moving forward, as societies become increasingly interconnected and diverse, the challenges faced by various fandoms will likely continue to revolve around navigating these legal and social landscapes. The key will be in fostering open dialogue, promoting accurate information, and advocating for the fundamental right to self-expression, all while respecting the established laws and norms of the communities in which these fandoms exist.